It's hard to see what else the Indian prime minister's special envoy to Nepal can do to untie the knot that Nepali politicians have got themselves into.
The fact that Shyam Saran was India's ambassador in Kathmandu and helped midwife the November 2005 12-point agreement between the seven parliamentary parties and the Maoists could mean he has a stronger sentimental attachment to his baby, and is therefore more committed to reviving the peace process.
It is now common knowledge that Indian intelligence sheltered and nurtured the Maoist leadership in Delhi during the war years. There are some in Nepal who say that India should clean up the mess it created. But that would be abdicating our own responsibility, and (more seriously) handing over our future political destiny to outsiders.
Indian operatives mollycoddled the Maoists, as they did the Tamil Tigers in the 1980s, to try to co-opt and control them. But the Maoists have become a pet that has outgrown its master. With the benefit of hindsight, Delhi probably realises it bit off more than it could chew. It now sees the Maoists as a threat to democracy not just in Nepal but India as well, and is in no mood to accept an unreformed Maoist party in a position of leadership in Kathmandu. The slaughter of 11 more Indian police in a Maoist attack in Chhatisgarh on Wednesday is just the latest in a rapidly escalating war there that reminds us of the 2000-2001 conflict period in Nepal. The Indian insurgency is following a familiar pattern, and there are calls to deploy the army there, too.
The red carpet treatment India gave to Burmese junta chief Tan Shwe last week proves that despite talk of shoring up democracy in its neighbourhood, realpolitik is the name of the game. If the national interest, need for energy, or geopolitical considerations dictate hobnobbing with dictators, so be it. There's a whiff of a subcontinental version of the Kirkpatrick Doctrine here (we don't care if they are sons-of-bitches, as long as they are our sons-of-bitches).
What this all means for us is that instead of waiting for India, or anyone else, to rescue our politics and perennially look to Delhi for signals, we should put our own house in order. There is no point celebrating the fact that Nepal was never colonised in history when we hobble around on the regional stage with our tail between our legs. It is time to stop playing victim, something we are extremely good at, and make our own future.
By now Chairman Dahal must have realised that the only way he is going to get to be prime minister is by making a credible public undertaking that he is demobilising his fighters, dismantling his paramilitary and renouncing his goal of establishing a totalitarian people's republic through protracted war. His ultra-nationalism card and flirting with the ex-royals are just not working, they are backfiring on him.
There have been enough empty words and false promises, so this time the burden of proof will be on Dahal. He has, however, made his task even more difficult by refusing to reign in the violence of his cadres, and burning his bridges with Big Brother.
The future of the peace process, the new constitution and this country's long-term political stability needs the Maoists to be on board as a demobilised and disarmed democratic party. This they must do to prevent their own self-destruction, and to prevent a collapse of the peace process.
The house could not elect a prime n minister on the 4th round also. So there is no alternative to patch up all the differences or machinations; but to go for a National All Party Government till the next election after the promulgation of the Constitution.
"Dahal must have realised that the only way he is going to get to be the prime minister is by making a credible public undertaking ( Announcing in Tundikhel)that he is demobilising his fighters,dismantaling his paramilitary an renouncing(abjuring)his goal of establishing a totalitarian people's republic..." It makes no sense to appoint Jhalanath ,the prime minister by consensus,by removing Madhab Nepal. Someone may be Ram Cdandra from the congress wiill be more appropriate this time. Musical chair ,/rotation can be applied for the position of the premier as well.till election. Non-partisan premier at the time of election can be installed. But the core issue is the transformation of the UCPN-Maoist into a civil party. That is the stumbling block, the dead center. The Jan Andolans people are waiting for a democratic Nepal, the jewel in the crown in the Himalaya.
06 AUG 2010 | 5:48 PM NST
2. kamal kishor
Failure fourth time, good for me. Until these two candidates withdraw or a new beginning is done, there is no point continuing, and if continued I would welcome failure more than Dahal becoming PM. (The desperation to get power reflects in horse-trading attempts by the Maoists and the fragile process became murkier. This once again reveals their commitment to democracy).
The only chance the Maoists should be given in retaking PM is to agree to three point agreement and implementing it sincerely. The whole problem of political transformation so far is that Maoists never show any willingness to try to fulfill the commitments.
So, now, the only way, a breakthrough in the stalemate is through soul searching by the Maoists. How long they want to make the CA a hostage of their greed for power and plundering. Their authoritarian approach is itself making their allegiance to democracy and democratic process a farce.
Regarding SS, India sent him to first of all to make it sure that Madhesis don't take part in horse-trading and help Dahal get elected. Besides, it was necessary for the negotiation to continue.
SS or India or any other outsiders should not be allowed to interfere but help the process of political transformation. For me, if SS can manage a solution, it would be most welcome. What makes it a different if India or USA or any other power can broker a deal? Regarding Nepal, international community has already given veto power to India. GPK had protested this way back to Clinton. For me, until and unless the political parties and personalities are sincere, who helps to make a deal does not matter. Mediation by others is most welcome but does not matter any more.
06 AUG 2010 | 6:54 PM NST
"The future of the peace process, the new constitution and this country's long-term political stability needs the Maoists to be on board as a demobilised and disarmed democratic party. This they must do to prevent their own self-destruction, and to prevent a collapse of the peace process."
Actually, thefuture of the peace process, the new constitution and this country's long-term political stability needs the Nepal Army to be on board as a downsized and democratized army completely subordinate to civilian supremacy. This they must do to prevent their own self-destruction, and to prevent a collapse of the peace process.
Hoping that India can preserve the feudal army means hoping that Nepal remains subject to the corruption based on military supremacy that keeps sub-saharan Africa so backwards.
Those hoping to preserve the old Nepal can convince each other that the they were unable to defeat the Maoists because India "mollycoddled" them and that Indian hostility to Maoists can now enable the failed loser parties to to keep the largest party that won the elections out of power just by shouting about "violence".
But this rubbish cannot convince anybody else no matter how often it is repeated. It especially cannot convince people who lost more than ten thousand martyrs in the civil war and are still suffering murders almost every week to trust their lives to an unreformed Nepal Army.
06 AUG 2010 | 10:00 PM NST
"[W]e don't care if they are sons-of-bitches, as long as they are our sons-of-bitches)"
Political and strategic compulsions are understandable. India needs to mollycoddle Myanmar for some ï¿½strategicï¿½ benefits - for example, getting help in stopping the illegal arms supply to Indian terrorist organizations - so they make a deal and roll-out the red one for them. I am all for it, in spirit.
But this type of deal making and developing your own sons-of-bitches should also require some careful thinking. In hindsight, and as evidence appears to suggest, both the Indian establishment and the civilian parties were lacking in this type of "strategic" thinking.
It should then stand to reason that someone careful and diligent should ask some questions (hopefully publicly) to really understand what led these two to make a deal. Rhetorically speaking, - what were they thinking?
In my view, the most important element of understanding someone is to look at the kernel of their character. Questions can follow later.
For example, we know that the reason most communists and socialists come from well-off families is that these children feel guilty about the benefits they got and are simply consumed by this guilt to the extent that they simply fail to grow up.
Also, we know that the main character of all politicians is not public good, but ambition, which is what drives them to wheeling and dealing. And, gives them the low cunning required to deal with perennial back-stabbers.
In the light of this idea, I recall having read a book (donï¿½t quite recall the name ï¿½ sorry, but I think by Bertrand Russell) where the author compared Indian and Chinese bureaucrats.
According to him, while Chinese are endowed with wit and character, Indians (despite being thorough gents on most occasions) have a certain eerie low-cunning, something diabolically arrogant and cynical about their whole demeanor, which unsettled him.
I donï¿½t think the Indians (or for that matter GPK, who was approximately there) were doing any strategic thinking when they shoved this 12 point deal thing down Nepalï¿½s throat. They simply saw an opportunity, and decide to just have a go at doing something to prove their low cunning.
06 AUG 2010 | 10:05 PM NST
It gets curiouser and curiouser. Let me see if I have got this right.
- India supports the Maoists while they are creating mayhem in Nepal - India then gets together the Maoists together to agree to the 12 point programme - We have a whole new (temporary) political setup which is described by the NT as a victory for democracy and peace and against totalitarianism. - And all this while NT is telling us that the Maoists are a homegrown phenomenon and the Maoists are the only political force standing for change in Nepal - And even while this is going on the Maoists shout loudly that they are against foreign intervention and the NT doesn't challenge them knowing that they are sponsored by India. - And the NT, in this article, says "There are some in Nepal who say that India should clean up the mess it created. But that would be abdicating our own responsibility, and (more seriously) handing over our future political destiny to outsiders." Presumably it doesn't think India can/will do anything to "clean up the mess". - And while all this is going on the NT thinks that the monarchy was removed by the popular will of the people. - Knowing that the Maoists mayhem was/is sponsored by India the NT still calls it janayuddha albeit in quotes. The correct term would be jana birodhi kaatmaar.
What next? The NT will be telling us that the posts sent in by Arthur on this forum is really Gyanendra?? or Manamohan???
07 AUG 2010 | 7:13 AM NST
6. Party Peedit
Arthur, how did you convince yourself that the Maoists "lost more than ten thousand martyrs"??! The problem is boutique lefties like you, often of Scandinavian, British, Swiss and American origins, (those of Indian origins being poor comical acolyte copies of this lot), who, in their guilt-ridden state induced by the hegemony of the the industrialized countries that has brought the world to this sorry state (where they enjoy all the privileges and think they do not share the sins), refuse to admit that their Messiah, aka Prachanda-Baburam, is a god with feet of crumbling clay.
07 AUG 2010 | 8:07 AM NST
"The plan is to democratise the Army which means to politicise the Army. It will take 5 to 7 years for that. If we are really going to have integration the way to do it is unit-wise so that our units remain with us. This is important if we do it unit wise. We can react if we are betrayed."ï¿½. "Speaking honestly we were few earlier. We were 7,000 to 8,000. If we had reported that, our number would have reduced to 4,000 after verification. Instead, we claimed 35,000 and now we are 20,000. This is the truth." Explaining the work of the party he said, "How is today's situation different from during the people's war? Talking of form, earlier you were holding the machine gun and, killing or being killed. Today it seems like we are chatting and sipping tea. The form is very different but the gist is still the same. We are both taking the revolution forwardï¿½"
For journalists, this was an explosive revelation because of the bit about the number of Maoist PLA and their plan to ï¿½politicizeï¿½ the army, so that it no longer remains democratic ï¿½ and therefore, subservient to its rules and procedures and the rule of the constitution of the country, instead of the whim of a wannabe dictator.
But the real revelation was the fact that the Maoist actually came into this with a plan. Pranchandaï¿½s assertion that the ï¿½gistï¿½ still remains the same requires some thinking. How does it exactly remain the same? What exactly is the gist?
Of course, for their propagandist, it would be the party circular. Try and obfuscate issues, be liberal in your use of expletives and temper that with rhetoric. Keep saying democracy and democratize so that nobody has any counter argument. If we have hijacked this term, how on earth are they going to express themselves? The objective of this is to gag the opposition.
But the gist of this revolution and the murder campaign carried out in its name is something else.
"We must form a comprehensive united front to tackle reactionary and regressive forces who are against the peace process and writing of the statute."
But this actually did not make much sense; the statement came sometime in August of 2009, a few weeks before the COAS was set to retire, and about two months after the government itself had resigned.
How do you tackle reactionary and regressive forces, why would you resign when all you had to do was wait for two more months and the ï¿½obstacleï¿½ would resign? The Maoist had the government, just as they are doing now; they could negotiate the living day lights out of other parties and have had their way much earlier. After all, having a way forward is not all about everybody following your way, is it?
The Maoist engagement with democracy is purely tactical and is only a stop-gap arrangement to secure the complete subversion of parliamentary democracy in Nepal.
All along this step-by-step evaluation of facts, available in the public domain, lead to the understanding of the Maoist tactics towards their main objective ï¿½ which is to establish a dictatorship.
ï¿½Look deeper and you will understand how the brave party is preparing for revolt.ï¿½
Always be the victim ï¿½ resign when there was no need to, kill, (for example in Tarai a series of Maoist deaths were blamed on outfits which are either led by, or were, a part of the Maoist organization
Divert attention from your real action ï¿½ raise the rhetorical decibel, make a lot of noise about terms and their meaning
Use the opportunity to set the stage for the final putsch ï¿½ plant your people in important places, academics, journalists etc
Tire out and frustrate your enemy ï¿½ donï¿½t allow replacement recruitment, the army works according to process, the longer it stays without the new leadership, the more it lacks the frontline teeth as soldiers get older, Lt.'s become captains and all that and is some years there will be no fighting force left!!
They were ready to wait seven years, it has only been four!!
There must be a lot more to all of this, they have brilliant academic support, among all players in the field they are the only ones with a clear long-term goal, they have patience and they have support.
The joker at the top is keeping everyone busy, the rest are busy undermining everybody as we speak.
07 AUG 2010 | 10:11 AM NST
"It is now common knowledge that Indian intelligence sheltered and nurtured the Maoist leadership in Delhi during the war years."
Well, the King and Army already knew this back in 2005. When they said this, papers like NT accused them of "ultra-nationalism" etc. etc. Five years later the truth has finally dawned on you. If you were half-decent people you'd begin by apologizing to the King and Army for your mistake!
All this farce is proving that the King was right after all. All this Maoist crap, 12-point understanding etc. were nothing but Big Brother's gameplan to destabilize Nepal and get us under their own control. In the past 4 years this is exactly what we have seen, culminating in this shameful episode of an Indian emissary having to come here to try to patch things up between its juvenile and bickering puppets. As some commenter in this forum used to say: "Capital of New Nepal is New Delhi!"
Enough is enough. Nepali people might as well stand up and admit what we all know in our hearts. The King was not lying to us. He had correctly assessed the internal and external political players in our country.He made some mistakes but he was acting in the country's best interests.It's papers like NT who had completely mis-analyzed the reality! Under their influence, we were wrong to distrust the King and his government.
If we want to set things straight we have to begin by acknowledging our own mistake and moving on to RESTORE THE MONARCHY! How can we punish the monarchy for being right?!
07 AUG 2010 | 4:17 PM NST
9. who cares
(interesting, logical note and some comments)
is there something going on?
*maoist have been using all kind of tactics to get into power.ï¿½
*they spend more than a year kicking rock on the street to send madhav nepal out of the govt.
and when finally madhav nepal resigns...... there is a visit of indian agent who go around saying clearly that they do not want maoist leading govt. .......... and still the maoist, we know what they are made up of, do not protest, do not go around banging their head on the wall. why?
did shyam saran really do it this time? is it possible that he threatened maosit of military solution, that india would supply weapon to nepal army if needed to completely eradicate maoist if they do not comply with their promises?
(in the past, i do not remember india opposing maoist lead govt openly, clearly)
even i believe that this mess is created by india and they should clean it up..... their responsibility would be- to supply real weapons to nepali security force and help with billions in $ (budgetary support) as a compensation for the suffering of nepalese caused by the terrorist nurtured, protected by india.
(ps: i always took maoist as a terrorist, but after peace agreement, i was ready to give them a change.
after a few weeks of them coming into open politics, i lost my faith completely.
i do not think they will do the right thing on their own, they have to be made to do. if it does not work then military backed solution.)
07 AUG 2010 | 10:27 PM NST
10. who cares
india should help nepal on nepalese's terms, i say "its their duty to help nepal" since this mess is created by them,ï¿½ (the dialogue from "kill bill"), but should not interfere.ï¿½
07 AUG 2010 | 10:33 PM NST
11. K. K. Sharma
So !.. peace process = appeasing the Maoists only. Not Jwala Singh and the likes.
So ! peace process is to remain a PROCESS. .... never ending. Which means no peace.
And, " we must do!". DO? WE?, .. when we have been following the hukums of Chandra Sheker, Surjit Singh, Shyam Saran to make this New Nepal. Can puppets do? or are they made to do?
Logic of theservile puppets is profound indeed !
07 AUG 2010 | 2:46 AM NST
I hope that the intrepid NT reporters will ask all Indian high officials at their news conferences whether it is true that "Indian intelligence sheltered and nurtured the Maoist leadership in Delhi during the war years" so that we can get it straight from the horses mouth. This is the least that we can expect from the NT having made this accusation.
How is it "tail between the legs" when the Nepalis have managed the Indian sponsored Nepali Maoists to mothball their guns and have been running rings around them on forming a government?
08 AUG 2010 | 12:49 PM NST
13. Arthur jange and others, you are getting much too excited about Kunda Dixit saying the same things about India nurturing Maoists as the royalists were saying before. This kind of gossip is typical of losers with no credible arguments. It is too late for Nepali Times echoing the royalists to help the royalists.
This stuff ended up discrediting the King, not the Maoists and it will have the same effect of discrediting Kunda Dixit even more quickly given how especially ridiculous it looks with the current confrontation between India and the Maoists.
08 AUG 2010 | 8:19 PM NST
09 AUG 2010 | 11:31 AM NST
The destiny of a country is in the hands of its people. Therefore why we must mind our P's and Q's. And the best way to predict the future is to create it.
The present situation of Nepal's Maoists is defined to be at a loose end which is extremely uncomfortable for them. Their leader Prachanda, the awesome, has been disowned four times consecutively by the CA members denying and barring him access to the post of prime minister. If he has any self-respect still left he would finally give up becoming a laughing stock in the poll of ensuing August 18. If he still makes other party members scared of his air of authority he is nothing more than a huckster turned hustler now licking his wounds.
Still, If doubts lurk in the mental shadow of the populace, it is because in politics to try to preach morality is like courting disaster to extrapolate anything conclusive. He hasn't got what it takes to be a prime minister of Nepal as was definitely shown with fracas.
This time round, Prachandaï¿½s master stroke appears to showcase his blindness and headlong rush into violence as shown by the spotlight of the recent past. His dismal prospects for Nepal would be to stand again as a stalking-horse candidate. The red herring to trick somebody into agreeing to participate in the formation of a new government by pestering the Terai political parties is like the pester power exercised by some brats brought up by careless and boorish parents.
More precisely and close to true, as to how this insanity been able to grip our country for the better part of last two decades? As long as the public continues to indulge in the illusion, the Devil will be hiding in the details.
And this is very fitting if you feel like making place on the political mantle, folks who are craving for it must have substance. Such searing changes do not occur overnight.
It ain't very surprising to find the Maoists and the ex-partisans of Monarchy abutted onto each other as both of them have a tad bit of skivvy's mindset as it seems impossible for them to live without a token of a figure head.. And both of them struggle for grabbing the mainstream power, but their ambit of goals is poles apart.. The former is for absolute control of the state treasury to serve themselves and live like pashas, nothing to do with much proclaimed nationalism as well as eradication of poverty. Whereas the latter is for the sake of perpetuating traditions and dead habits such as most controversial Nepalese caste system which is actually known as Bahunbadi. Both know their limits by now. That means they try to survive at all costs, albeit unlikely bedfellows.
No Nepalese is in denial and inertia about his cultural inheritance which forged each of them to be what he is today. But it shouldn't stand in the way of his progress either substantially or spiritually. What is most desired for today's Nepal is to definitely leap on the bandwagon of progressive and sustainable development where smart, creative and imaginative Nepalese shall be unleashed, driving the industrial revolution, and there ain't any going back.
A young country like Nepal requires to be inured to criticism of those political schemers who haven't the slightest idea about how to make headway in economy. Of that , there is little doubt as we hear somewhere along the grapevine that we are more than a little keen to find some sort of support for those apt for appropriate reasoning skills.
Nepalese traversed space and time until now on the back of a donkey. The Maoists want to morph that particular donkey into a buffalo, hardly any change in particular but with a Maoists' yoke for at least 30 years. They have no place in the jamming and brouhaha of Information Technology (IT) of the 21st century where folks ponder and wonder over perennial quantum mechanics, relativity, fractal and teleportation to embrace the pinnacle of human imagination and creativity. In a matter of some years we are going to possess a quantum laptop which could allow us to browse as fast as anything.
A country really gets known for its healthy and prosperous economy where people are busy doing businesses, creating new technologies where citizens get appropriate and adequate education and health care, and on top of all that, people are proud to be the active citizens with a competent army to take care of their security.
Army is meant for protecting the country from foreign aggressions as well as to neutralize country's subversive elements, that means, the inner enemies of democracy. Army doesn't participate in futile political squabbling.
Once King Mahendra sent people back home by elaborating a Kafkaesque program called 'Gaon Farkaï¿½ a k a Go back to your villages. In doing so Nepal lagged behind at least by 50 years. As of now, people are awakening slowly by sending their offspring abroad by the package of thousands for the attainment of higher education and to make up the lost time. Because they know instinctively the famous phrase of Thomas Jefferson: ï¿½The best way to preserve democracy is an educated public.ï¿½
But Nepal has become a hub of foreign spooks where RAWS, ISI, Chinese spies, CIA, MI5 and MOSSAD are digging their holes in case India and China will confront each other to wreck havoc in the region. It will be like waging wars between the two Asian giants which are politically at loggerheads, each being a colossus with feet of clay. China has already made her way full of prowess through mountains of 5000m of altitude by bringing a train to Lhasa linking with Beijing, the capital.
Whereas India has just begun constructing a tunnel of about 8km long between Manali and Leh, the capital of Ladakh to surpass the Rohtang pass which covers the extent of 800km approximately inaccessible during 6 months in winter but Ladakh is primordial for India to abut onto the plateau of Tibetan borderlines. On the other hand, India learned some crude lessons from the former confrontation of 1962 AD. Hence, they already constructed some of the highways to reach Nathula and Jelepla passes on Sikkim and Tibet borderlines.
How long Nepal will be littered with the insane and sclerotic presence of the Maoists? Under the Maoists threat this country has suffered years of debilitating poverty and imposed war. If they are still intent on keeping other parties sidelined this will be the beginning of their end as a party politics in Nepal.
Of late, on the telly in Europe when we saw the reportage on the decadence caused by Maoists' spread of terror strewn in remote villages which made the young lads and lasses quit their villages prematurely to get enrolled in the PLA by applying force and constraint to fight the national army. And those who eventually escaped from it became in the course of time the glue-sniffers and hookers at Thamel in Kathmandu who sleep on street pavements. It is simply beyond the limit of anybody's acceptance.
If we were during the cold war we would have obtained some substantial and logistic help from the Occident in order to get rid of this scourge as erstwhile Cambodia received the military aid from Vietnam to kick out Pol Pot and his acolytes. Similarly, Peru got rid of Shining path (Sendero Luminoso) miscreants by arresting their dilettante leaders Abimael Guzman a k a Gonzalo (nom de guerre) and Oscar Ramirez one after another. Gonzalo is purging his life imprisonment 30m underneath the Andean mountains.
Here is what I consider all too likely that the Maoists would never accept to join the mainstream politics. One day we need the army and a foreign assistance to throw their leaders either behind the bar or out of country's boundary so that they no more could pester populace by their incessant nagging and lawlessness in the country.
The dismal reality ain't always very fun.
09 AUG 2010 | 12:32 PM NST
16. who cares
here comes Arthur again without any basic knowledge regarding maoist and their adventures.ï¿½
what do you mean, when you said regarding "India nurturing Maoists"?
you mean to say that maoist never lived in delhi, capital of india.
Comrade Arthur, we can not repeat same history again and again just cause some one from no where drops in the scene- who are over obsessed with commies, think commies are saint, never involved in any evil activity, doing everything for poor, they are the sacrificer-------- disagree with the history.
and current confrontation is because maoist is not getting what they want and india have felt betrayed by maoist.ï¿½
here, ï¿½maoist want india to intervene and help maoist to lead govt. , and india want maoist to protect their interest.
ï¿½but today, india no longer trust maoist and maoist say, in their behavioral, they want india to support them first then only they will fulfill indian wishes. like- there is a hydro project "pancheshwor", its prachanda who proposed india to complete it when he had gone to delhi as pm, and when the next govt. initiated the project, the same maoist opposed it in the name of nationality. ï¿½ ,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,, and also when he was in delhi at that time, he asked india to invest in nepal's hydro,,,,,,,,,, during next govt. indian firms won some projects through bidding process (i am sure you know how bidding works, right), then there come maoist to revoke the agreement in the name of nationality and local people's right (as a commitment to local rights- project should sell 10% shares to locals, pay more than enough compensation) .................... but it turned out that maoist were trying to block the projects just to extort from those companies and there was in the news that maoist commie friend from india, w bengal, mediated the deal where maoist got millions in extortion. .................. ï¿½after that incident, i have hardly heard that commie friend coming forward in support of maoist.ï¿½
do you know, jsut yesterday, another maoist was caught with contraband.
09 AUG 2010 | 1:38 PM NST
17. who cares
why are maoist wasting money, time trying to buy MPs?
suppose they are able to buy majority mps and then try to do they they have been trying to do,,,,,, then what?
dont they know, when there will be no legal option for democrats to stop maoist, maoist will face coup?
09 AUG 2010 | 1:41 PM NST
It always intrigues me how the royalists in this post seem to think Nepali Times is pro-Maoist and the Maoists think it is pro-royalists.
09 AUG 2010 | 3:29 PM NST
19. Arthur Party Peedit #6.Anti-maoists regularly blame Maoists for 13,000 to 16,000 deaths in the civil war. Detailed figures from INSEC (an anti-Maoist UML front) show 8,377 killed by state and 4,970 killed by Maoists for total of 13,347. I believe both the total and the numbers killed by state are slightly larger, but if you prefer the number 8,000 instead of 10,000 the point remains the same - Maoists are not going to trust their lives to an unreformed Nepal Army.
Gyan #18 I haven't seen anyone suggesting NT is pro-royalist. My point in #3 was that Kunda Dixit is now using the same silly lies about Maoists being nurtured by India as the royalists did, but that the royalists shouldn't get so excited about this as it won't be any more useful against the maoists coming from both of them than it was when just coming from royalists.
BTW I'm not sure jange or Budabaaje actually think NT is pro-Maoist either. Seems more like just complaining that NT should have become as anti-Maoist as it is now a lot earlier instead of waiting until the royalists had been defeated.
At least that would make some sort of sense from their own (royalist/militarist) point of view, whereas thinking NT is pro-Maoist would not.
Its always better to assume people you disagree with are saying something that would at least make sense from their own point of view unless they actually make it impossible to believe that (eg the stream of consciousness vented by Slarti, Sargam and who cares is too difficult to interpret as an attempt to say anything about the article or anything intelligible enough to respond to).
Kunda Dixit on the other hand would like to believe what you claimed. His self image is to be in the "golden middle" (actually the golden muddle). But his real position is now clearly on the (non-royalist) anti-maoist right.
Isn't it more intriguing that the anti-Maoists, both royalists and others want to believe the maoists are "nutured by India" while also calling on India to help save them from the half a million Maoists they saw in Kathmandu recently?
09 AUG 2010 | 9:50 PM NST
@#18: ...and it intrigues me no end how some just don't get it. I've seen this comment before (either from Gyan or somebody else).
Let me see if I can help clarify:
I don't think Nep Times IS pro-Maoist. It WAS pro-Maoist up until 2008. Something(s) made it reverse its stance since then. It IS anti-Maoist now. My sense is that other supporters of monarchy think the same.
Hope this helps to clarify your illusion.
09 AUG 2010 | 3:34 AM NST
21. who cares
here is another proof why some think Arthur or any other commie are fools, lacks analytical ability, poor judgment of others:
we blame maoist of killing 16k cause they started the war terrorism for nothing.
in the beginning, i thought, maoist were forced to take up arms (cause they were tortured by police in the early days), ï¿½later prachanda himself said that they decided to take up arm well before.
and its job of police/army/govt to eliminated armed group. so we can not blame them for killing 16k,
you should keep in mind another point, maoist as well as other also say that maoist have sacrificed 16k life to reach here. why do you think they say 16k not 8k? cause 16k lost their life during war for a cause, at least they think so.
i hope you would not repeat the no next time.
and only you saw half a million in kathmandu.ï¿½
i hope you would response to one question "today you are blindly supporting maosit ........ and ........ what would you do or how would you correct your mistake, if tomorrow you realize that they really are evil and they have killed thousands just to fulfill their personal interest or due to their foolish evil mind?ï¿½
and do not reply with another question, what would i say or do when i realize they are really good individual capable of changing nepali society for good and we missed the chance? ........ reply, there are ample proof that they are evil, they do not have brain even for a minor better change,,,,,,,, and if we live me may get another chance (if i am wrong, there may be another chance on our way, but if you are wrong, we are doomed) ..................
you are not supporting maoist cause when you had visited nepal, nepalese mistreated you and you want us to pay for that, are you?
every sane person can see maosit are evil. ...........and you should learn from the mistake of our ancestress. ......... can you imagine or heard of the person, who was intelligent and kind, could had gone through after seeing hitler killing millions after coming into power with his support, help?
10 AUG 2010 | 12:12 PM NST
It is not a lie that the maoists are/were nurtured by the Indians. The surprise is that the NT should actually put it in print.
The maoists and the Indians themselves do not deny that they are/were nurtured by the Indians. Why do you feel the need to deny it?
The phrase "more royalist than the king" comes to mind when reading your post.
10 AUG 2010 | 3:48 PM NST
23. Arthur jange #22, it is obvious to all that the Maoists are the largest party in Nepal and were "nurtured" throughout most of the rural areas by the people of Nepal. The overwhelming majority were only in Nepal.
A few Maoist leaders spent some of their time underground moving between India and Nepal. That does not mean they were "nurtured" by India. Those who the Indian authorities were able to catch were either handed over to the Nepalese authorities or imprisoned. Others were not caught - due to support from Indian revolutionaries, not from Indian government.
There was a widespread solidarity movement for "hands off Nepal" embracing all political tendencies other than BJP etc. As a result India, like Europe, US and China did not extend the level of assistance to the Nepalese reactionaries that they hoped for, expected and needed and that the Maoists feared. That is failing to nurture the royalists, not nurturing the Maoists.
India, and its supporters in Nepal like GPK played a positive role in encouraging and facilitating peace agreement. That was nurturing peace and beneficial to both sides, not nurturing one side.
India is currently interfering in Nepal to oppose Maoists and Nepali Times supports this and wants US and Europe to join it in doing so. That is all that lies behind its ridiculous claim that the royalist lies about Maoists having been nurtured by India have suddenly become true.
It is indeed surprising that Nepali Times is so brazen about this, but they cannot turn a lie into a truth by "admitting" it.
10 AUG 2010 | 8:13 PM NST
#18, as a royalist I feel obliged to state clearly that while agree that this paper is not pro-maoist, I strongly feel that it is fair to accuse this weekly of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. Unfortunately, this is true of all newspapers published in this country.
I am disappointed in the fact that all Nepali intellectuals played an active role in legitimizing maoist violence by following a pattern of reasoning which would mean that every petty criminal, robber, thief and murderer would have a place in this countryï¿½s political future only as long as they can cook up something to whine about.
Naturally, no murderer says that he is in it for just the fun of it, we cannot expect Maoists to say that either. It is the responsibility of this paper to expose this gang; it fails to do so because it lacks the courage.
The paper failed to support the only side which behaved responsibly throughout the crisis, the King and the Army. Contrast the role played by the two with any other country which faced an insurgency.
How did China deal with unarmed protestors who did not threaten to unseat the government, but demanded governance reforms, there was no armed insurgency backing this movement
Russia, North Korea, the United States and the UK, every single country involved in anti-insurgency, whether at home or abroad, has a pathetic record of prosecuting their own compared to the Nepali Army.
And still, this paper talks of the two as if they were the ones in the wrong and the rest were right. That too not through an analysis, carefully evaluating the evidence present, backed by facts but by mere proclamation.
Let me move on to something more current, which would illustrate this habit.
While Mr. Dixit easily makes the accusation that India sheltered Maoists, he does not tell us how he knows that? Why he believes that to be the case? Why would the Indian agencies support a terrorist organization against its most reliable neighbor?
I felt that the only two elements that were conclusively proven were a) Indiaï¿½s role in the 12 point deal and b) the fact that it did have some contact with the Maoist. The later is to be expected of any country which hopes to be a global power, as India does. These to me are what you call facts.
The second part of the article was about who did what for what purpose and who should own the responsibility for all of that. This is to be expected of any party entering into an argument.
We are as yet unaware of all of this, instead left with a lecture about what we should do in conclusion.
I felt very strongly that it needed more information so I speculated on what could be the objective of different players who participated in the deal in my two comments above.
You have to make room for that fact that I am not a terribly smart person (which explains why I am Royalist) and that I am not terribly well educated (which explains my confusing and elongated explanations.
10 AUG 2010 | 9:04 PM NST
Oh my God. How does this Arthur believe that Nepalese nurtured the maoist terrorists? Anyway, it doesn't matter what he thinks. Look at where the country is now because of the 12 or who-knows-how-many-point agreement written and nurtured in India, and Arthur's party being the biggest party in the parliament.
11 AUG 2010 | 6:55 PM NST
26. Sharanhari Dukulanthak
Those who support Lalldhoj, Prachande and other sundry Nepali worshipers of Stalin and Mao, please listen to these BBC documentaries, take a deep breath and think all over again. You might start thinking little differently. Here is the link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2010/07/100624_doc_useful_idiots_lenin.shtml
11 AUG 2010 | 11:47 PM NST
27. jnge 25. SS Oh my God. How does this Arthur believe that Nepalese nurtured the maoist terrorists?
By being murdered, looted and extorted by the Maoists.